tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post9069415769112908233..comments2024-02-29T09:58:18.342+01:00Comments on The Swiss Ramble: Napoli's Success StoryThe Swiss Ramblerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-77048951432385615772011-05-03T10:14:31.807+02:002011-05-03T10:14:31.807+02:00@Anonymous (11:28),
I don't know what require...@Anonymous (11:28),<br /><br />I don't know what requirements are specified by Italian law, but all clubs that I have reviewed publish detailed annual accounts. In fact, I have the latest accounts for every Serie A club.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-64679031468663602011-05-02T23:28:06.555+02:002011-05-02T23:28:06.555+02:00Could I also ask where you got this information fr...Could I also ask where you got this information from? Does Italian law require the registration of accounts that the Companies Act 2006 does?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-73210699577527761142011-05-02T23:25:45.718+02:002011-05-02T23:25:45.718+02:00Very interesting.
It would be interesting to see ...Very interesting.<br /><br />It would be interesting to see the effect of relegation to Serie B for a season, as was the case with Parma for 2008/09, and the time taken to recover from that relegation when compared with the analogous situation West Brom found themselves in a year later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-17666248943275814712011-04-27T19:19:56.997+02:002011-04-27T19:19:56.997+02:00@Anonymous (6:20),
Thanks. All those clubs are on...@Anonymous (6:20),<br /><br />Thanks. All those clubs are on my list of possibles, though I'll probably take a break from Serie A for a while.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-45460904584731873552011-04-27T18:20:50.636+02:002011-04-27T18:20:50.636+02:00great article, you seem to be keen on serie a club...great article, you seem to be keen on serie a clubs currently, an analysis on clubs like udinese, genoa and lazio would also be quite interesting...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-48655347341920605512011-04-27T09:21:47.197+02:002011-04-27T09:21:47.197+02:00@Anonymous (11:42),
Yes, I do use Excel. The wage...@Anonymous (11:42),<br /><br />Yes, I do use Excel. The wages to turnover graph is a combination chart.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-55876052905591093912011-04-27T09:20:35.458+02:002011-04-27T09:20:35.458+02:00@ADD,
The problem is that net transfer spend can ...@ADD,<br /><br />The problem is that net transfer spend can only ever give an indication of the impact on player amortisation, as there are too many variables to be completely certain of the outcome.<br /><br />Let me give you an example. Let's say that a club spends 40m on transfer purchases and recoups 20m from sales, giving a net spend of 20m. You might assume that this would mean an increase in amortisation, but this is not necessarily the case. The 40m spend might be on a player with a 5 year contract, which would increase amortisation by 8m. However, the 20m sale might be a player who 3 years ago cost the club 50m on a 5 year contract, so his sale would reduce annual amortisation by 10m. This would result in a net 2m reduction in amortisation, even though the net spend was a large positive.<br /><br />The other point is that the net transfer spend figures from websites such as Transfermarkt are only indicative of the actual figures, as these are not always publicly divulged by clubs. I use them because the data is easily accessible, but they should always come with a health warning. Some clubs include details of their transfer spend in their accounts, but this is not always the case. Usually, they include a figure in the cash flow statement, but even that is not the whole story, as this reflects cash payments (so sometimes not the whole transfer fee).<br /><br />As I said before, all the Italian clubs that I have reviewed use the same amortisation accounting treatment as clubs abroad (with the one exception of Napoli), so I'm not sure that their method can be described as more conservative. The other point is that Italian clubs do provide a full detailed analysis of the amortisation figure by player, so it would be quite difficult to fudge this.<br /><br />If they did try to artificially inflate the amortisation figure, this would have the advantage of potentially reducing the tax bill, but it would hurt their prospects of being in line with the break-even philosophy behind UEFA's Financial Fair Play Rules.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-80153117675304117962011-04-27T03:43:16.035+02:002011-04-27T03:43:16.035+02:00@SW,
Perhaps I was not clear enough previously....@SW,<br /><br /> Perhaps I was not clear enough previously. My understanding is net transfer is qualitatively, not quantitatively, related to amortization. That is to say, the more you fork out of pocket in the transfermarket, the higher the amortization going to be. The idea is simple: when a player is sold, then his value will be off the book therefore amortization decreases; when a player is bought amortization increases.<br /><br /> So here's the case for Milan and Tottenham for the years from 2005-2009 in transfer market (all figures in lum sum):<br /><br /> gross exp. Net exp. Total 5-yr amor.<br />Milan 146.6M 39.7M 165.5M<br />Hotspur 337.7M 182.7M 118.7M<br /><br />*transfer figures taken from transfermarket.co.uk<br />*amortization figures from SW's posts<br /><br /> So here is the strange thing: Milan amortize more than what they spend in that period, while Hotspur spend much more than Milan, whether gross or net, but they record a smaller amortization during the same period. <br /><br /> On Milan's account, I agree it will be more difficult as Milan uses calendar year instead of football season. However, in this particular case, it should not matter as milan only spent 10M in the season of 2004-2005 (buying Stam from Lazio for 10M) and has negligible net transfer expenditure. Whether the 10M is added does not impact much on a ~150M figure.<br /><br /> So my thought is, if their methods of amortization are sensible, the Italians might be more conservative dealing with amortization. Or the Italians purposely bring the book to red to avoid taxes.A.D.D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-81910650577744002652011-04-26T20:03:59.662+02:002011-04-26T20:03:59.662+02:00@Anoynmous (5:51),
Thanks. I have looked at Inter...@Anoynmous (5:51),<br /><br />Thanks. I have looked at Inter and Real Madrid in the past, although only up to last year's figures. You can find those articles by looking at the list of football clubs on the left side of the blog.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-36107072073308315182011-04-26T19:11:01.871+02:002011-04-26T19:11:01.871+02:00@ADD,
Amortisation is difficult to reconcile with...@ADD,<br /><br />Amortisation is difficult to reconcile with the net transfer spend, as it depends on a number of factors, not just the amount.<br /><br />For example, net spend might be zero arising from purchases of 10m and sales of 10m, but the amortsiation could increase. This would happen is the club bought a player for 10m on a five-year contract, meaning additional amortisation of 2m, and sold a player for 10m that was either fully amorised or a homegrown player, so no amortisation coming off the cost base. In this case, amortisation would increase by 2m, even though the net transfer spend was zero.<br /><br />Many clubs do not detail the workings behind the amortisation expense, but Italian clubs usually do, so their accounts include an appendix detailing the amortisation by player. In Napoli's case, I can see that the main reasons for the steep increase in amortisation in 2009/10 were the purchases of Quagliarell 7.2m, Cigarini 4.2m. Zuniga 3.4m, Campagnaro 2.8m, Hoffer 2.1m and Dossena 1.6m.<br /><br />With Milan it is even more difficult to reconcile spend with amortisation, as their accounts run over a calendar year, while the Transfermarkt figures follow the football season.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-67739657704685023392011-04-26T18:35:23.738+02:002011-04-26T18:35:23.738+02:00@SW
Me on the amortization again...sorry for so...@SW<br /><br /> Me on the amortization again...sorry for so many questions. According to transfermarket.co.uk, Napoli spend almost the same last year and the year 07-08 in transfer market. If they are indeed using accelerated amortization, how could amortization differ like 50% in the P&L statement?<br /><br /> The same goes with Milan's story, where in this post you indicate Milan has net transfer spending of roughly 10M during past five year. Yet, in your previous post (http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/AC%20Milan), the amortization adds up to 150M for the last couples of years.<br /> On the other hand, for a club like Hotspurs, which spend hell a lot in transfer market during last couple of years (their net expenditure are around 100M for the two years of 08-09 and 09-10), their amortization is similar to that of Milan, if not lower. <br /><br /> I understand they may use different amortization method, but the huge difference in number does not add up to me.A.D.D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-64164741142055994402011-04-26T17:51:48.866+02:002011-04-26T17:51:48.866+02:00more great stuff. Is there any chance of having a ...more great stuff. Is there any chance of having a look at inter and real madrid?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-892008960710753912011-04-26T08:20:44.673+02:002011-04-26T08:20:44.673+02:00@Anonymous
"I don't think that Ital...@Anonymous <br /><br /> "I don't think that Italian clubs will get to the match day level of the likes of Arsenal or Manchester United, but they could reasonably aim to emulate German clubs."<br /><br /> They can't. Italy is not as rich a country as Germany and even worse the southern parts of the country (which Naples is part of) is much poorer than the northern parts. Their league has been propped up by the generosity of their club's rich owner, but on the long run the future of the Serie A is bleak."<br /><br /><br />Not true. Bundesliga has very low ticket price (-10 euro). For italians, it is just that people are just not going to the stadium while watching TV in the bars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-34163715160682361852011-04-24T11:42:26.294+02:002011-04-24T11:42:26.294+02:00Hey SR, another great analysis. I wonder, do you ...Hey SR, another great analysis. I wonder, do you use Excel, and if so, how do you get your percentages running along the right hand side in your Wages v Turnover graphs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-87244505687037650602011-04-23T16:41:21.095+02:002011-04-23T16:41:21.095+02:00"I don't think that Italian clubs will ge..."I don't think that Italian clubs will get to the match day level of the likes of Arsenal or Manchester United, but they could reasonably aim to emulate German clubs."<br /><br />They can't. Italy is not as rich a country as Germany and even worse the southern parts of the country (which Naples is part of) is much poorer than the northern parts. Their league has been propped up by the generosity of their club's rich owner, but on the long run the future of the Serie A is bleak.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-2731246843496465522011-04-23T11:28:53.434+02:002011-04-23T11:28:53.434+02:00@Alan,
Thanks.
It certainly helps that the club ...@Alan,<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />It certainly helps that the club no longer has its pre-bankruptcy debts, but, on the other hand, they lost a lot of revenue during the period in C1.<br /><br />I agree that a new stadium is by no means a no-brainer, as clubs would have to find the money to finance the development. On the other hand, they should be able to secure additional revenue streams from more premium seating and ancillary activities like retail, merchandising and other events.<br /><br />I think a lot of clubs will be looking at how successful Juve's stadium move is in practice. The club has estimated that their match day revenue will more than double to 40m, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.<br /><br />I don't think that Italian clubs will get to the match day level of the likes of Arsenal or Manchester United, but they could reasonably aim to emulate German clubs.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-28680833055068868522011-04-23T11:20:47.967+02:002011-04-23T11:20:47.967+02:00@Robert,
Thanks.
1. The figure for stadium rent ...@Robert,<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />1. The figure for stadium rent is directly from the accounts (the exact number is 583,193) under the description "affitto campi sportivi e canone concessione stadio".<br /><br />2. The fee varies. You would have to look at each club's accounts.<br /><br />3. Again, this depends.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-80023236166908128882011-04-23T11:16:32.108+02:002011-04-23T11:16:32.108+02:00@Anonymous (10:02),
Yes, the figures do look stra...@Anonymous (10:02),<br /><br />Yes, the figures do look strange, though the more relevant basis would be the gross spend. On further investigation, I have discovered that Napoli use an accelerated amortisation method, which I have not seen in any other club that I have reviewed. This means that in a five-year contract, the amortisation rates are:40%, 30%, 20%, 7% and 3%.The Swiss Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423088862174893998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-8490273949455753252011-04-23T10:02:39.335+02:002011-04-23T10:02:39.335+02:00good read.
however, the player amortization figur...good read.<br /><br />however, the player amortization figures intrigue me. usually a player would sign a four-year contract upon joining a new team. the net expenditure is around 100M, so how would amortization amounts to 40M last year?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-64433248033526419032011-04-23T10:00:50.681+02:002011-04-23T10:00:50.681+02:00Great post ! Again ! :-)
"for Napoli to be d...Great post ! Again ! :-)<br /><br />"for Napoli to be doing so well with such a low budget".<br /><br />If I see this correct than SSC had the eighth highest budget in the Serie A right after their promotion ... and reached in 07/08 7. and 08/09 12. place in the final classifiation.<br /><br />They are doing so well ... in securing BIG commercial contracts. <br /><br />Napoli has (much) higher commercial revenues than Fiorentina, Lazio or Udinese. <br />Therefore it is doubtful that - according to Abete - other teams (e.g. Bologna, Cesena, Brescia) could follow.<br /><br />The "rebirth" of Napoli is marvelous but their success - which may lead to CL money - and their "concept" (strict wage control) are "fresh": <br /><br />I think the comparison with the "top dogs", i.e. Juventus, Milan, Inter, Roma, is favourable but we will see, if the SSC management is able to maintain their wage scheme and stick to their concept - especially if the following seasons might see them decline in the league.derheroldhttp://dermakler.blogger.denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-17707635421799540322011-04-22T04:36:44.509+02:002011-04-22T04:36:44.509+02:00hey mate that was an awesome read.
Its wicked to ...hey mate that was an awesome read.<br /><br />Its wicked to see Napoli coming back into football relevance, with the likes of Lavezi and Hamsik playing constantly for them and with future transfers they make they will be going from strength to strength http://91mins.blogspot.com/Vinskaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10863298269956294166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-37633656767671208612011-04-22T04:30:32.102+02:002011-04-22T04:30:32.102+02:00Hi Rambler, awesome post. I have a few queries.
1...Hi Rambler, awesome post. I have a few queries.<br /><br />1) Wanted to know where you found out the figure of €600,000 that Napoli pay to the local council for stadium rent.<br /><br />2) My second question is - is this the same fee for every other club in Italy. And if not, do you know where I could find it?<br /><br />3) Lastly, how much of their ticket revenues do Italian clubs give to the councils? Because it's obvious that clubs like Inter are making more than €30-40m per year in ticket sales, but that most is going to the councils. Sad really.Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-59961880898428502372011-04-21T18:09:26.603+02:002011-04-21T18:09:26.603+02:00Great Post..Would like to make a request though......Great Post..Would like to make a request though...If you can do an analysis on Hamburg...They make regularly 140 million plus despite not being in the CL, are the second wealthiest club in Germany and still punch no where near their weight in Germany or Europe..Dont understand why they never seem able to spend big...Would like to understand why this is soshyamhttp://shyamramasubramanian.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-487486960623783530.post-15034443754461464152011-04-21T14:14:22.751+02:002011-04-21T14:14:22.751+02:00Another great post rambler.
Not sure if you cove...Another great post rambler. <br /><br />Not sure if you covered it and I didn't understand but I wonder to what extent is Napoli's profitability due to the club's repudiation of its longstanding debts a few years ago, freeing them from costly payments?<br /><br />secondly, it is clear that council-owned Italian stadiums are in a relatively poor state and do not maximize profits for the clubs. You have made the point often that Italian clubs are miles behind the stadium revenues of Arsenal et al, but due to the low price of tickets in Italy is the building of new stadiums really any sort of panacea for Italian clubs? It seems to me that it would be difficult to generate the kind of jumps in profits from gate receipts and related income streams in order to finance ventures costing hundreds of millions of euros. What sort of rise in revenue could a club like Napoli expect to see from a brand new stadium?Alan MacLeodnoreply@blogger.com